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release of new XML-based HATs from Quadralay imminent
Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Posts: 6
release of new XML-based HATs from Quadralay imminent
It`s not often I get excited enough about a product to give it my unabashed
support, but this is one of those days. Having just come off a lengthy
exchange with the folks at Quadralay, I thought you might be interested to
know, in case you`ve been off-planet on vacation :), that their newest
product, the totally XML-based WebWorks ePublisher Pro for Word, will be
released June 13, with the FrameMaker version to follow in July. I find
these XML-based HATs to be really exciting, as we have both Word and FM docs
to bring into the next generation of online help.
You can get the whole scoop and sign up in advance to receive the trial
version here:
For Word version:
Info:
http://www.webworks.com/products/wwep_w/default.aspx
Trial:
http://www.webworks.com/products/wwep_w/tryit.aspx
For FrameMaker version:
Info:
http://www.webworks.com/products/wwep_f/default.aspx
Trial:
http://www.webworks.com/products/wwep_f/tryit.aspx
_____________________________
Regards,
John Wilcox, Technical Writer
Zetron, Redmond
(I don`t work for Quadralay, but I have been a fan of WebWorks for almost 6
years.)
Joined: 05 Aug 2003
Posts: 21
release of new XML-based HATs from Quadralay imminent
I have no idea what you mean by HAT (10/6 this style?). But I certainly
agree that Quadralay makes good software. If you`re exporting Word or
Frame documents to any kind of markup, you absolutely need to look at
their products. Unfortunately the key word is "export". Does your
excitement have to do with better support of native XML editing?
John Wilcox wrote:
>It`s not often I get excited enough about a product to give it my unabashed
>support, but this is one of those days. Having just come off a lengthy
>exchange with the folks at Quadralay, I thought you might be interested to
>know, in case you`ve been off-planet on vacation :), that their newest
>product, the totally XML-based WebWorks ePublisher Pro for Word, will be
>released June 13, with the FrameMaker version to follow in July. I find
>these XML-based HATs to be really exciting, as we have both Word and FM docs
>to bring into the next generation of online help.
>
>You can get the whole scoop and sign up in advance to receive the trial
>version here:
>
>For Word version:
>Info:
>http://www.webworks.com/products/wwep_w/default.aspx
>Trial:
>http://www.webworks.com/products/wwep_w/tryit.aspx
>
>For FrameMaker version:
>Info:
>http://www.webworks.com/products/wwep_f/default.aspx
>Trial:
>http://www.webworks.com/products/wwep_f/tryit.aspx
>
>_____________________________
>Regards,
>John Wilcox, Technical Writer
>Zetron, Redmond
>(I don`t work for Quadralay, but I have been a fan of WebWorks for almost 6
>years.)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
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Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Posts: 3
release of new XML-based HATs from Quadralay imminent
A HAT is a "Help Authoring Tool". Webworks, RoboHelp, etc.
-Katie
On 6/1/05, Isaac Rabinovitch <isaac@...> wrote:
> I have no idea what you mean by HAT (10/6 this style?). But I certainly
> agree that Quadralay makes good software. If you`re exporting Word or
> Frame documents to any kind of markup, you absolutely need to look at
> their products. Unfortunately the key word is "export". Does your
> excitement have to do with better support of native XML editing?
>
> John Wilcox wrote:
>
> >It`s not often I get excited enough about a product to give it my unabashed
> >support, but this is one of those days. Having just come off a lengthy
> >exchange with the folks at Quadralay, I thought you might be interested to
> >know, in case you`ve been off-planet on vacation :), that their newest
> >product, the totally XML-based WebWorks ePublisher Pro for Word, will be
> >released June 13, with the FrameMaker version to follow in July. I find
> >these XML-based HATs to be really exciting, as we have both Word and FM docs
> >to bring into the next generation of online help.
> >
> >You can get the whole scoop and sign up in advance to receive the trial
> >version here:
> >
> >For Word version:
> >Info:
> >http://www.webworks.com/products/wwep_w/default.aspx
> >Trial:
> >http://www.webworks.com/products/wwep_w/tryit.aspx
> >
> >For FrameMaker version:
> >Info:
> >http://www.webworks.com/products/wwep_f/default.aspx
> >Trial:
> >http://www.webworks.com/products/wwep_f/tryit.aspx
> >
> >_____________________________
> >Regards,
> >John Wilcox, Technical Writer
> >Zetron, Redmond
> >(I don`t work for Quadralay, but I have been a fan of WebWorks for almost 6
> >years.)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Joined: 05 Aug 2003
Posts: 21
release of new XML-based HATs from Quadralay imminent
Duh! Well then, the new Quadralay release sounds less exciting and more
like buzzword hype. Publisher already supports both XML exports and help
authoring, and has for some time.
Katie Kearns wrote:
>A HAT is a "Help Authoring Tool". Webworks, RoboHelp, etc.
>
>-Katie
>
>On 6/1/05, Isaac Rabinovitch <isaac@...> wrote:
>
>
>>I have no idea what you mean by HAT (10/6 this style?). But I certainly
>>agree that Quadralay makes good software. If you`re exporting Word or
>>Frame documents to any kind of markup, you absolutely need to look at
>>their products. Unfortunately the key word is "export". Does your
>>excitement have to do with better support of native XML editing?
>>
>>John Wilcox wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>It`s not often I get excited enough about a product to give it my unabashed
>>>support, but this is one of those days. Having just come off a lengthy
>>>exchange with the folks at Quadralay, I thought you might be interested to
>>>know, in case you`ve been off-planet on vacation :), that their newest
>>>product, the totally XML-based WebWorks ePublisher Pro for Word, will be
>>>released June 13, with the FrameMaker version to follow in July. I find
>>>these XML-based HATs to be really exciting, as we have both Word and FM docs
>>>to bring into the next generation of online help.
>>>
>>>You can get the whole scoop and sign up in advance to receive the trial
>>>version here:
>>>
>>>For Word version:
>>>Info:
>>>http://www.webworks.com/products/wwep_w/default.aspx
>>>Trial:
>>>http://www.webworks.com/products/wwep_w/tryit.aspx
>>>
>>>For FrameMaker version:
>>>Info:
>>>http://www.webworks.com/products/wwep_f/default.aspx
>>>Trial:
>>>http://www.webworks.com/products/wwep_f/tryit.aspx
>>>
>>>_____________________________
>>>Regards,
>>>John Wilcox, Technical Writer
>>>Zetron, Redmond
>>>(I don`t work for Quadralay, but I have been a fan of WebWorks for almost 6
>>>years.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>Yahoo! Groups Links
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>>
>>
>>
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>>
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>Yahoo! Groups Links
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Joined: 20 May 2005
Posts: 10
release of new XML-based HATs from Quadralay imminent
John - Thanks for the heads-up, but I`m also a bit confused about what your
excitement is about. WebWorks has supported export to XML for some time.
I`ve read the marketing blurb you point to, but it leaves me none the wiser
(surprise! surprise!). Seeing Quadralay haven`t explained what`s new in
WebWorks XML-wise and you have presumably done a trial-run, maybe you could
write a few lines about it?
Charles
>From: Isaac Rabinovitch <isaac@...>
>Reply-To: xml-doc@yahoogroups.com
>To: xml-doc@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [xml-doc] release of new XML-based HATs from Quadralay
>imminent
>Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:02:34 -0700
>
>I have no idea what you mean by HAT (10/6 this style?). But I certainly
>agree that Quadralay makes good software. If you`re exporting Word or
>Frame documents to any kind of markup, you absolutely need to look at
>their products. Unfortunately the key word is "export". Does your
>excitement have to do with better support of native XML editing?
>
>John Wilcox wrote:
>
> >It`s not often I get excited enough about a product to give it my
>unabashed
> >support, but this is one of those days. Having just come off a lengthy
> >exchange with the folks at Quadralay, I thought you might be interested
>to
> >know, in case you`ve been off-planet on vacation :), that their newest
> >product, the totally XML-based WebWorks ePublisher Pro for Word, will be
> >released June 13, with the FrameMaker version to follow in July. I find
> >these XML-based HATs to be really exciting, as we have both Word and FM
>docs
> >to bring into the next generation of online help.
> >
> >You can get the whole scoop and sign up in advance to receive the trial
> >version here:
> >
> >For Word version:
> >Info:
> >http://www.webworks.com/products/wwep_w/default.aspx
> >Trial:
> >http://www.webworks.com/products/wwep_w/tryit.aspx
> >
> >For FrameMaker version:
> >Info:
> >http://www.webworks.com/products/wwep_f/default.aspx
> >Trial:
> >http://www.webworks.com/products/wwep_f/tryit.aspx
> >
> >_____________________________
> >Regards,
> >John Wilcox, Technical Writer
> >Zetron, Redmond
> >(I don`t work for Quadralay, but I have been a fan of WebWorks for almost
>6
> >years.)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Posts: 3
release of new XML-based HATs from Quadralay imminent
I believe the difference is (which John was expressing but stated
ambiguously) that the new version is XML-based. That is, the
transformations are XML/XSL-based - no more macro language. Export to
XML has, as you say, been around for a few versions.
Hope this clarifies.
Roger
Roger Shuttleworth
Documentation Team Lead
Activplant Corporation
140 Fullarton Street, 9th Floor
London, ON N6A 5P2 Canada
Tel. 519 668-7336
Fax. 519 668-3227
www.activplant.com
-----Original Message-----
From: xml-doc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:xml-doc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Charles Johnston
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 2:10 AM
To: xml-doc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [xml-doc] release of new XML-based HATs from Quadralay
imminent
John - Thanks for the heads-up, but I`m also a bit confused about what
your excitement is about. WebWorks has supported export to XML for some
time.
I`ve read the marketing blurb you point to, but it leaves me none the
wiser (surprise! surprise!). Seeing Quadralay haven`t explained what`s
new in WebWorks XML-wise and you have presumably done a trial-run, maybe
you could write a few lines about it?
Charles
>From: Isaac Rabinovitch <isaac@...>
>Reply-To: xml-doc@yahoogroups.com
>To: xml-doc@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [xml-doc] release of new XML-based HATs from Quadralay
>imminent
>Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:02:34 -0700
>
>I have no idea what you mean by HAT (10/6 this style?). But I certainly
>agree that Quadralay makes good software. If you`re exporting Word or
>Frame documents to any kind of markup, you absolutely need to look at
>their products. Unfortunately the key word is "export". Does your
>excitement have to do with better support of native XML editing?
>
>John Wilcox wrote:
>
> >It`s not often I get excited enough about a product to give it my
>unabashed
> >support, but this is one of those days. Having just come off a
> >lengthy exchange with the folks at Quadralay, I thought you might be
> >interested
>to
> >know, in case you`ve been off-planet on vacation :), that their
> >newest product, the totally XML-based WebWorks ePublisher Pro for
> >Word, will be released June 13, with the FrameMaker version to follow
> >in July. I find these XML-based HATs to be really exciting, as we
> >have both Word and FM
>docs
> >to bring into the next generation of online help.
> >
> >You can get the whole scoop and sign up in advance to receive the
> >trial version here:
> >
> >For Word version:
> >Info:
> >http://www.webworks.com/products/wwep_w/default.aspx
> >Trial:
> >http://www.webworks.com/products/wwep_w/tryit.aspx
> >
> >For FrameMaker version:
> >Info:
> >http://www.webworks.com/products/wwep_f/default.aspx
> >Trial:
> >http://www.webworks.com/products/wwep_f/tryit.aspx
> >
> >_____________________________
> >Regards,
> >John Wilcox, Technical Writer
> >Zetron, Redmond
> >(I don`t work for Quadralay, but I have been a fan of WebWorks for
> >almost
>6
> >years.)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
Yahoo! Groups Links
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Joined: 13 Jun 2003
Posts: 39
release of new XML-based HATs from Quadralay imminent
> John - Thanks for the heads-up, but I`m also a bit confused about what
your
> excitement is about. WebWorks has supported export to XML for some time.
And for those of us who don`t use Doze, this is another big Doze-only
yawn.
--
Larry Kollar, Senior Technical Writer, ARRIS
"Content creators are the engine that drives
value in the information life cycle."
-- Barry Schaeffer, on XML-Doc
Joined: 05 Aug 2003
Posts: 21
release of new XML-based HATs from Quadralay imminent
That explanation makes a lot of sense. But if true, it`s a change that
will have little impact on most users. Perhaps I`m wrong, but I don`t
believe a lot of Publisher users have to modify the macro library. This
wasn`t always the case -- when I first used the product I had to do a
lot of macro hacking to get the customized output I needed. But the
latest version of the macro library is nicely parameterized, and I don`t
see a lot problems you can`t solve just by tweaking those parameters.
And if all you do is tweak parameters, you don`t care what language the
underlying software is using.
Those users who *do* hack Publisher macros might not be very
enthusiastic about this development. All their macro coding skills are
now obsolete, and they`ll have to learn to use XSLT, which is not an
easy language to learn!
Roger Shuttleworth wrote:
>I believe the difference is (which John was expressing but stated
>ambiguously) that the new version is XML-based. That is, the
>transformations are XML/XSL-based - no more macro language. Export to
>XML has, as you say, been around for a few versions.
>
>
Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Posts: 6
release of new XML-based HATs from Quadralay imminent
--- In xml-doc@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Shuttleworth"
<rshuttleworth@a...> wrote:
> I believe the difference is (which John was expressing but stated
> ambiguously) that the new version is XML-based. That is, the
> transformations are XML/XSL-based - no more macro language. Export
to
> XML has, as you say, been around for a few versions.
>
> Hope this clarifies.
Sorry for the late reply; been on Digest.
Thanks, Roger, for that clarification. Quite right. You`ll no longer
have to export from Word or Frame to XML, then import that into WWP.
Now WWP (WWeP now, I guess) takes the native Word or Frame files and
does the churning into XML, from which the usual help and other
output formats can be produced, using XSL transforms that WWeP has
provided, which, as Isaac suspects, may need tweaking, but it`s GUI-
based now, so unless you like to get your hands dirty, you won`t have
to go under the hood now. And that`s my run-on sentence for the
day. :)
_____________________________
Regards,
John Wilcox, Technical Writer
Zetron, Redmond
Joined: 20 May 2005
Posts: 10
release of new XML-based HATs from Quadralay imminent
>you don`t care what language the underlying software is using
Precisely. It`s the (XML) output that matters.
Charles
>From: Isaac Rabinovitch <isaac@...>
>Reply-To: xml-doc@yahoogroups.com
>To: xml-doc@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [xml-doc] release of new XML-based HATs from Quadralay
>imminent
>Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:53:53 -0700
>
>That explanation makes a lot of sense. But if true, it`s a change that
>will have little impact on most users. Perhaps I`m wrong, but I don`t
>believe a lot of Publisher users have to modify the macro library. This
>wasn`t always the case -- when I first used the product I had to do a
>lot of macro hacking to get the customized output I needed. But the
>latest version of the macro library is nicely parameterized, and I don`t
>see a lot problems you can`t solve just by tweaking those parameters.
>And if all you do is tweak parameters, you don`t care what language the
>underlying software is using.
>
>Those users who *do* hack Publisher macros might not be very
>enthusiastic about this development. All their macro coding skills are
>now obsolete, and they`ll have to learn to use XSLT, which is not an
>easy language to learn!
>
>Roger Shuttleworth wrote:
>
> >I believe the difference is (which John was expressing but stated
> >ambiguously) that the new version is XML-based. That is, the
> >transformations are XML/XSL-based - no more macro language. Export to
> >XML has, as you say, been around for a few versions.
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 20
release of new XML-based HATs from Quadralay imminent
Isaac Rabinovitch <isaac@...> writes:
[...]
> Those users who *do* hack Publisher macros might not be very
> enthusiastic about this development. All their macro coding skills are
> now obsolete,
Too bad for them. I guess maybe the lesson they can learn from
this is to always be wary of making an investment in learning any
non-standard, non-portable language that`s useful only with one
specific app.
Anyway, in my completely unbiased opinion, it`s a great thing that
Quadralay has moved toward basing WWP on XML and XSLT. Actually, I
thought at first it sounded too good to be true, but their current
online marketing literature does seems to confirm it:
"XML-based processing allows WebWorks ePublisher Pro for
FrameMaker to feature totally XSL-based customizations, without
the need for proprietary macros."
http://www.webworks.com/products/wwep_f/
"XML- and XSL-based formats allow for an open standard for
customization (no proprietary macros required)"
http://www.webworks.com/products/wwep_f/features.aspx
> and they`ll have to learn to use XSLT, which is not an
> easy language to learn!
Right. But neither is any other language that has the same level
of power and flexibility that XSLT has.[1]
The tradeoff is, any time they spend learning XSLT is an
investment in learning a language that`s usable across many
applications and that has many other uses than in, say, just the
process of converting Frame files to other formats. And when they
run into problems or have questions, they have a massive user
community to turn to for free support. Etc.
--Mike
[1] The latest indepedent estimate I read concluded that "XSLT
is roughly one gazillion times more powerful than the WWP macro
language". Or maybe it was actually some friend of mine that
concluded that. Or me. Regardless, feel free to pass on that
quote, attributed to whomever you`d like to attribute it to.
--
Michael Smith
http://logopoeia.com/ http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/890
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 20
release of new XML-based HATs from Quadralay imminent
Roger Shuttleworth <rshuttleworth@...> writes:
> I believe the difference is (which John was expressing but stated
> ambiguously) that the new version is XML-based. That is, the
> transformations are XML/XSL-based - no more macro language. Export to
> XML has, as you say, been around for a few versions.
And, anyway, you don`t need WebWorks Pro to get XML from Frame,
right? Or with the current MS Word either? Even in Frame 6, you
can generate XML (of a sort) just by doing a "Save As XML" from
within Frame itself. Though the output from that has some very
serious limitations. Like not preserving your index markers.
But any exported XML has little value unless it is an instance of
some schema/DTD for which you have existing transformation support
(output to HTML, PDF, etc.). Or unless you do an additional XSLT
pass to transform it into an instance of some schema/DTD (like,
say, DocBook) for which there is existing transformation support.
So it seems like what`s new is that Quadralay has added that
transformation support for the type of XML that WWP exports. (By
the way, does anybody know what they call the language for that?
"WWP XML"? And is a schema or DTD for it available?)
I`d guess that what they do now is:
1. Keep pretty much the same kind of UI for doing the "setting up
mappings" part for mapping your own in-house Frame/Word
paragraph tags and character tags to WWP`s standard structures.
2. Use mapping information from step 1, just as before, to convert
your Frame or Word source to the format WWP uses internally.
3. (new part) Internally use the "WWP XML" format (or whatever
it`s called) -- in place of whatever non-XML internal format
used before.
4. (new part) Use XSLT to do all further processing.
Maybe somebody on the list who has actually used the "XML/XSLT
backend" version of WWP can confirm whether or not the description
above is what it`s actually doing. And maybe also provide details
about how the WWP customization API is now implemented.
It seems like it must ship with a set of XSLT stylesheets, and
users need to modify copies of those to customize their output.
Does WWP provide any kind of GUI for doing the XSLT customization?
Probably not, I suppose. But then I guess it didn`t previously
provide a GUI for doing that part of the customization either.
(It`s been a long time since I used it, but I vaguely remember
needing to manually edit some ".asp" pages...)
But I also seem to remember that the old UI allowed you to specify
WWP macros to use in the "step 1-2" setting-up-mappings part. If
they were to provide similar functionality via XSLT, it seems like
they would need to enable users to put xsl:call-template and
xsl:with-param instances in places where they have macros now.
Or who knows, maybe with the newest WWP there is no need for an
equivalent of the macro instances you would`ve had there.
Anyway, WWP`s move to using XSLT-based processing for its output
backend seems to give some strength to the view thet one thing
people perhaps ought to be looking for in their WYSIWYG authoring
applications is built-in support for exporting "good" XML -- that
is, XML which is an instance of some industry- standard XML
schema/DTD for which there is existing transformation support for
generating HTML and other output formats (other than print/PDF).
OpenOffice, for example, has (some) built-in support for DocBook
XML output.
Authoring applications that have built-in support for generating
that kind of "portable" XML output pretty much obviate the need
for WWP or any of the tools similar to it.
--Mike
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joined: 05 Aug 2003
Posts: 21
release of new XML-based HATs from Quadralay imminent
I didn`t mean to imply that Publisher macro hackers are getting a bad
deal. I absolutely agree that the trend towards standardizing on XSL as
a document processing language is a Good Thing. It`s a powerful,
vendor-neutral tool, and we all benefit from its growing popularity.
That said, this move does make life more difficult for some people in
the short term, and this needed to be pointed out.
Michael Smith wrote:
>Isaac Rabinovitch <isaac@...> writes:
>
>[...]
>
>
>
>>Those users who *do* hack Publisher macros might not be very
>>enthusiastic about this development. All their macro coding skills are
>>now obsolete,
>>
>>
>
>Too bad for them. I guess maybe the lesson they can learn from
>this is to always be wary of making an investment in learning any
>non-standard, non-portable language that`s useful only with one
>specific app.
>
>Anyway, in my completely unbiased opinion, it`s a great thing that
>Quadralay has moved toward basing WWP on XML and XSLT. Actually, I
>thought at first it sounded too good to be true, but their current
>online marketing literature does seems to confirm it:
>
> "XML-based processing allows WebWorks ePublisher Pro for
> FrameMaker to feature totally XSL-based customizations, without
> the need for proprietary macros."
> http://www.webworks.com/products/wwep_f/
>
> "XML- and XSL-based formats allow for an open standard for
> customization (no proprietary macros required)"
> http://www.webworks.com/products/wwep_f/features.aspx
>
>
>
>>and they`ll have to learn to use XSLT, which is not an
>>easy language to learn!
>>
>>
>
>Right. But neither is any other language that has the same level
>of power and flexibility that XSLT has.[1]
>
>The tradeoff is, any time they spend learning XSLT is an
>investment in learning a language that`s usable across many
>applications and that has many other uses than in, say, just the
>process of converting Frame files to other formats. And when they
>run into problems or have questions, they have a massive user
>community to turn to for free support. Etc.
>
> --Mike
>
>[1] The latest indepedent estimate I read concluded that "XSLT
>is roughly one gazillion times more powerful than the WWP macro
>language". Or maybe it was actually some friend of mine that
>concluded that. Or me. Regardless, feel free to pass on that
>quote, attributed to whomever you`d like to attribute it to.
>
>
>
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